“Because of the negative stigma and labels, people are often afraid to even disclose that they have a neuro diverse condition like autism...Organisations need to change so that everyone will feel comfortable asking for what they need to thrive at work”.

- Nathan Chung

Meet Nathan Chung. As someone with Autism and ADHD, Nathan knows what it is like to be a minority. In this episode he shares how he encourages others to elevate the voices of neuro diverse people, support women and to flip the script on the negative stigma surrounding those in a minority.

Last year Nathan won the Male Ally of the Year Award for his advocacy for women in cyber security globally. Nathan is also an advocate for neuro diversity and racial equality, hosting his own podcast NeuroSec where he interviews amazing people in cybersecurity with very diverse conditions and supporters. Nathan serves on multiple boards, including IGNITE Worldwide; WiCyS (Women in Cybersecurity) the largest women in cyber nonprofit in the US; and also Spark Mindset. Originally from Hawaii, he specialises in cloud security with a career spanning more than 20 years.

Links:

Nathan LinkedIn

Transcript

CP: Hello and welcome to The Security Collective podcast. I'm your host Claire Pales, and today's guest is Nathan Chung. Nathan is an advocate for women in tech and cybersecurity, neuro diversity and racial equality. Nathan serves on multiple boards, including IGNITE Worldwide; WiCyS (Women in Cybersecurity) the largest women in cyber nonprofit in the US and he founded the Colorado chapter; and also Spark Mindset. Nathan is originally from Hawaii and specialises in cloud security with a career spanning more than 20 years. In 2020, Nathan won the Male Ally of the Year Award for his advocacy for women in cyber security globally. Nathan is the host of the NeuroSec podcast where he interviews amazing people in cybersecurity with very diverse conditions and supporters. And I am thrilled to have Nathan on the podcast as my guest today.

NC: Thank you Claire. It's a pleasure to be here.

CP: So Nathan, as I was preparing for our conversation, I was absolutely blown away by the work that you do in the area of neuro diversity. And I'm excited to have the opportunity to chat today. As the host of the podcast NeuroSec, let's start there. Can you tell me what the podcast is about and what's inspired you to be the host

NC: So first of all, I'm really happy to be here. I actually have autism and ADHD. I got my diagnosis late in life, which is a very common story of my guests I interview. I started the NeuroSec podcast last year because I wanted to elevate the voices of neuro diverse people such as myself, and to flip the script on the negative stigma. Many of my amazing guests shared powerful stories that have resonated with people all over the world, even difficult stories like being bullied in school or the exciting stuff, which is getting their very first cybersecurity job. So really powerful stories. 

CP: And how do you find the guests for the podcast?

NC: Some can come up to me. Some have been referred by friends, but sometimes I even check up on social media or LinkedIn or Twitter, just look at who are the thought leaders who, who are saying a lot of great things or who even wrote a book, etc. Social media has really helped me because in this time of COVID it's hard to get out.

CP: Oh, absolutely. I think we all know the feeling. And neurodiversity is a concept. And please correct me if I'm not on the right track with this, but neurological differences like autism, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, many neurological differences are recognised and respected. What can we in the cyber community do to increase opportunities for people with neurological differences? And what are some of the things we should maybe stop doing?

NC: Looking back at my long journey, it starts from within. We need to be able to understand and accept who we are, because workplaces also need to change corporate culture, their hiring practices, and management practices that are sadly not friendly for people like me. For example, because of the negative stigma and labels, people are often afraid to even disclose that they have a neurodiverse conditions like autism, because they're just afraid of being discriminated against, losing their job or not even getting the job. Organisations need to change so that everyone will feel comfortable asking for what they need to thrive at work. Once that happens, more people will be set up to succeed and thrive.

CP: Apart from your passion for neuro diversity, you're also clearly a very active supporter of women in cyber and I mean, winning the Male Ally of the Year award must have been an incredibly proud moment for you. If you can explain for our listeners a little bit about what this award recognises, and what did it mean to you to win it?

NC: Absolutely. So the Male Ally of the Year award was created by Carmen Marsh last year to recognise people and organisations globally that are allies, to advance equality and make a difference for women in technology in cybersecurity. I won the male award for being a Male Ally of the year last year because of my global efforts to support women and many other nonprofits, volunteer work and just raising awareness. So why do I support women in tech and cybersecurity? It's because women in cybersecurity represent our wives, our mothers, our daughters, our sisters, our nieces, our cousins and our friends. Also, many girls and young women entering into tech and cybersecurity today will become the future leaders of tomorrow. Men and women need to work together to address the gender gap in cybersecurity.

CP: Absolutely, and I think that the reason, some of the reasons that women aren't in cyber are due to some of the challenges around it being a particularly male dominated environment, and for them being a minority in many cases, and I know that, from your perspective, you can probably appreciate some of the challenges of being a minority in our industry. And so, you know, I think your point earlier about looking within and knowing who you are, and being aware, would be a huge help to you to support all the different types of diverse minority groups within our sector.

NC: Yep, absolutely. The next Ally of the Year awards is going to happen on Friday, March 19, and I can't wait to see who the winners are. But you are correct. There are many, many barriers for women to enter tech in cybersecurity, that it breaks my heart when I talk to women, and they share stories such as them quitting cyber or not even entering cyber, because they feel that they cannot have everything they want. Things like having a family, having children, or having child support or being able to care for their loved ones, their parents. Or even basic in more basic things like having pay equal to that of their male colleagues, things like that is very frustrating, and women globally know it is a problem. Even though things have improved over the years, and more women are now in cyber, COVID also hit very hard, because as everyone knows, historically, when an economic crisis hits, which is the pandemic, women, unfortunately they bear the brunt of the job losses. Like in the US alone, millions of women throughout the country lost their jobs. And that's in general, I don't think there's any numbers out on the number of women in cyber, but I'm pretty sure it declined.

CP: Absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, we experienced homeschooling here for many, many months, especially here in Victoria, in Australia. And the brunt is borne by a lot of women. And there are lots of men out there supporting as well. But certainly the pandemic, the statistics are showing us that women were particularly impacted. And on your point about Male Ally of the year, as we're recording this, it's actually already the 19th of March here in Australia. So at some point today, we'll know who the Male Ally of the year is for 2021!

From the lots of studies that I'm aware of, it looks like there's about one in four security roles are filled by women. And the numbers have increased in recent years, depending on which survey you read, I think. But the numbers I think are still far lower than we would like. From your experience, what could we do to make cybersecurity roles more attractive to women? So, you know, we've talked about the women that we're losing out of the industry, but how do we attract more to come in?

NC: Well, first, organisations need to accommodate women's needs based on each individual because like, there's no one size that fits all. Because for example, some women will need childcare for their kids, some need to take care of their parents, others will just be someone who actually thrive working from home, it's that kind of flexibility that it should be offered to women like by default. This is simply a manager asking women, what do you need to thrive in their position? This is something that is so basic, but sadly, it is always the case. Women really do need equal pay for equal work. And this has been a theme across many, many, many decades. But sadly, it's just like for every dollar that men make women make far, far less. And for women who are like say a woman of colour, Asians and Latinas it's even more less. This can be addressed with pay transparency. Also one tidbit which is not often discussed for some reason, some US states have banned asking for salary history during the interviews. Because traditionally, during the normal interview process, it's common to ask the applicant how much do you make in your current job. So that has been proven through studies and historically been proven hold back women's salary, and even more so minorities, it's been proven over and over again. So I'm happy that legislation like that came out to help address that and, but that word needs to get out to a lot of people that in those states, if you live in one of those US states that has passed this legislation, it is now illegal for your employer, for the company to ask you what is your salary history. Because now it kind of flips the script, now you can say pay me the market rate, pay me what I'm worth, and that I think is very powerful.

CP: There's been attempts to remove unconscious bias further, not necessarily through law, but just through organisations trialing different things like removing the university or college that people went, to or removing their name off the top, and you know, just trying to really narrow down, just look at their skills and experience and meet them and understand their capability, rather than judging them based on, you know, what's on their resume, you know where they live, or where they went to college or what their their name might look like. Because there are plenty of people that live here in Australia who might have a foreign looking name, but are actually as aussie as they come. So, you know, and either way, you actually shouldn't be a question, it should be are they the right person for the job?

NC: Yep, absolutely. And I'm very happy about that because not just unconscious bias, but another huge barrier, which is not often discussed is traditional gender stereotype. Because I, I actually have friends who feel that they do get pressure from like their parents to just follow what tradition, what traditionally women do. Like just not work, just get married and have kids. A lot of people tell me that. But in my view, that's a disservice. But sadly, those gender stereotypes are prevailing in countries and in families, culture history, and it's sometimes even up to the government level that, sadly, in some countries. More has to be done to positively portray women, so that women can see in the media and have positive role models and think I can do this, I can work in tech, I work in cyber, and they can and they can thrive.

CP: It's interesting, I want to pick up on two points that you said, I spoke at an International Women's Day event a couple of weeks ago, and they asked me the question around, you know, how do we get more women into the industry? How do we retain women in our organisations? And I said, on that talk exactly what you just said, we actually need to ask women why are they staying? So you know, if there are women, lots of women in your organisation, and their tenure is long, let's ask them why do they still work here? Did their values align? Are we providing the opportunities they need? Is it the flexibility? Is it the people around them? Why are those women staying? And then how do we do more of that to keep women and to attract more women in. You know, I think we have to, it's like any type of business, you have to ask your customers what they love, you know, and, you know, if women are sticking around, ask those women, why are you still here? Because that should be telling as to the things that we can do more of to keep women and attract more women.

NC: It's true, it's sometimes it's just as simple as asking people, not just women, but even men or even those who don't identify with either gender, just simply asking the person, what do you need? And sadly, even for people who are neuro diverse, even more so like the other disabilities is neuro diversity or even handicap, there is such a negative stigma that people are sometimes afraid to even ask, what do they need? Like throughout my career journey, I can, honestly say that I'm one of them. I was afraid or even ashamed to have been asked like, what, what I needed. But fortunately I just started a new job in Microsoft, where I'm really happy and it's more inclusive. And I'm free and open to be myself, I don't feel the negative stigma at all, I can ask for what I need. And I'm surrounded by incredible people who are very supportive. But overall, throughout my career journey, I have also seen a lot of people who have gone the opposite route. I've seen a lot, I've been in a lot of organisations where there is still even today a lot of negative stigma, and that's sad.

CP: Absolutely. And you know, I think people like yourself are out there, trying to change that negative stigma and be a role model for others. And I absolutely think that the work that you're doing is incredible. And the way that you are not just working in your own job, but you are running the podcast, and you're blogging, and you're speaking, and you're an advocate for so many people, so many people who would be feeling that they're not included and that they are not I guess respected for the individual that they are.

NC: Yep I couldn't have said it better myself. And, and I think another reason why I do this is because despite where I am now, like for example, I gave a talk about cybersecurity to a group of autistic college students and it moved my heart because 20 years ago, I was where they are. Sometimes people just need just a kind word because I was telling them things like, no matter what, they will be successful. And don't let people drag you down because we live in a world full of bullies and people who don't always want us around, that's sad and unfortunate. But sometimes just a kind word or an encouragement or lifting people up, that's it. It's like you don't have to spend a whole lot of money or, or be famous to change the world. Just be kind to other people.

CP: Yeah, it costs nothing to be nice right!

NC: Absolutely!

CP: I want to finish up by talking about a review that you recently wrote about the Queen's Gambit, which is a show that I absolutely loved. And you said near the end, the series showed what many people who are neuro diverse need in order to survive and thrive. They need support. Being neuro diverse yourself, how have you gone about creating the right support structure for you in the cybersecurity industry?

NC: Ooh, that's a hard question. But for starters, what I learned over time, you need a good, good set of friends to support you along the way. It was hard for me to, for me to make friends because of me having autism. I'm socially awkward so it's very difficult to form relationships. Also, starting my new job at Microsoft, I was really happy to get the support I need. Even more so seeing like, within the tools and the software I work with, the things I need like captions or transcribing, it's all built in by default, I don't have to ask for anything so far. And I was just shocked and amazed. And I'm really proud to work at a company like that. In addition, with the recent attacks in Atlanta, which were some women of Asian ancestry were killed, Microsoft at their events they came out like at the very start of their event the other day, they showed support, and I was really happy and it makes me really proud to work in Microsoft, for a company to show support for such tragic and horrible acts of violence against people.

CP: Yeah, I saw that in the press as well. And, you know, to your point it around being proud to work for an organisation who understands the value in kindness and in respect for what people are going through, I often talk to people, I'm sure you get approached as well by people asking you how to get into the industry and what's important to you in finding a job. And, you know, my advice is always to start with what are your values, and what organisation has the same values that you do. So that when you get up to go to work every day, you're going somewhere where you know that you're going to be able to fulfil your values, and you're not going to feel like your integrity is compromised by working there. And to hear you talk about working for Microsoft, where you go to listen to at a town hall or to a meeting and the leaders get up and they talk about a tragedy that's happened to a group that you feel passionate about, that must have been incredibly uplifting for you. And I mean, did it make you feel like yes, I found the right organisation for me? 

NC: Yes, absolutely. Because to give you a background history, my career spans more than 21 years. I started off, my very first job in IT was working as a tech in Hawaii. So I gradually climbed my way up and transitioned to cybersecurity. And now I'm at Microsoft. So I'm really happy to be working at Microsoft, because it shows that companies can change. Change is hard. But sadly, like a lot of companies, I worked at a lot of companies where it is still toxic, it's hard just being who you are, some companies are just not that friendly towards women or people in general. But I think what I've seen in Microsoft, it just shows that change is possible and companies that like that can lead the way, it's just got to have the courage to fight for change. 

CP: Absolutely. And you are one of the most courageous people I've met Nathan, thank you so much for joining me today. I’m really proud to have been able to have a conversation with you and to listen to your experience and your views on cybersecurity and minority groups and diversity and you have a lot to share. So I really encourage my audience to listen to your podcast and learn more about neuro diverse people. I wish you all the best at Microsoft and into the future in your career. And thank you so much for everything you do for women in cyber and for neuro diverse people.

NC: Yep, thank you Claire. It's a privilege to be here and thanks for having me on your show.